This is some discussion in response to a friend's post asking about what people are doing to help the environment. Thoughts?
Comment from: shell [Visitor] · http://www.duregger.net/shell
Comment from: Gaither [Visitor] · http://derflugplatz.blogspot.com/
I'll get the unpopular comment out first: I honestly don't think that people give nature enough credit for what it can and can't handle, and that when things are getting serious, we'll know and there won't be too much controversy over it.
That being said, bikes make the world go round. In a small to medium sized town there's really no excuse to be driving around unless you're missing a leg. I get around Moscow faster than cars because there are so many lazy college kids driving EVERY SINGLE PLACE THEY GO. The only time I drive is to get to the farm, which is 15 miles away, 3 of which are gravel. A decent sized messanger bag/backpack lets you get your grocery shopping done too. I think I do it out of a dislike for laziness more than environmental benefit. And the only real hope for a positive effect on the planet is that others follow an example.
That being said, bikes make the world go round. In a small to medium sized town there's really no excuse to be driving around unless you're missing a leg. I get around Moscow faster than cars because there are so many lazy college kids driving EVERY SINGLE PLACE THEY GO. The only time I drive is to get to the farm, which is 15 miles away, 3 of which are gravel. A decent sized messanger bag/backpack lets you get your grocery shopping done too. I think I do it out of a dislike for laziness more than environmental benefit. And the only real hope for a positive effect on the planet is that others follow an example.
Comment from: shell [Visitor] · http://www.duregger.net/shell
“I honestly don't think that people give nature enough credit for what it can and can't handle, and that when things are getting serious, we'll know and there won't be too much controversy over it.”
Where’s the controversy? You would have a different opinion if you lived in Donora, PA in 1948 where twenty one people died and nearly 6,000 became ill after a thermal inversion (a cold air mass) trapped steel industry smog in the city. Or if you were a family member of the 4,000 that died from asphyxiation during the “killer smog” of 1952 in London. Or a child growing up with developmental problems from DDT floating around in the air and water. Perhaps you would feel the same if you were living on the watershed of the Snake River in Idaho where chemical companies are dumping chemical and radioactive waste into the bodies of water or injecting it into the ground water—perhaps you would be ok taking that blow for the companies. Some 60% of liquid hazardous waste in the United States is pumped deep underground and has seeped into groundwater. But that’s fine, I mean, they have to make a living, right? Perhaps living on an island of Maldives and seeing the water rise 4-8 inches in the last 40 years wouldn’t concern you too much as your beaches disappeared, or perhaps the Mexicans are ok with the fact that they get only half of the water that they have paid for from the Colorado River because Americans are too greedy. In fact, the Colorado River is so dammed (no pun intended) that there is no water to empty into the ocean at its mouth.
If the world was subdivided into cubes of land and air resources that did not affect any other property owners bubble, you would see the effects and the differences from owner to owner. Then at least your actions would affect no one else—except those who couldn’t afford to own land—and you could pollute all you wanted. But it doesn’t work like that. Aquifers are connected, some internationally. We all need to use rivers and other bodies of water. The ocean is internationally used and all of these resources are finite. They can be depleted. Thinking that the problem is not really serious yet and waiting for it to get to the level of crisis and THEN doing something about it will not work. First of all, what is your definition of crisis? People are dieing from cancer, arsenic water poisoning, and other pollution related problems and we sit by thinking it’s ok?
When will it not be ok? Aquifers take 200 years to replenish, Ocean fish that become extinct do not come back to life. God gave us this earth to use, but not to destroy selfishly. We are to take care of the earth…we were put here to tend it. We are also told to care for our fellow man, how can we do that when, blinded by our Affluenza, we seek only our own good. We can afford to buy bottled water and sterilize our living quarters from the earth’s polluted elements…but not everyone can. And there will come a time when we can’t escape our own messes. One author has said that Humans are the only species that has fouled its own nest in such short order.
Jer 22:3 “Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.”
How can we love our brothers and sisters in Christ and share the love of God on earth as we contribute to the poisoning of their resources. How can we say that we are loving others and not “shedding innocent blood in this place” while we using things up selfishly without care as to what we are doing for future generations, etc.
All the Scientific data recognizes pollution, consumption, fossil fuel depletion, and Global warming as urgent and serious NOW…politics and corporations don’t want to recognize it because this will mean that their millionaires will have to look at what they are doing and spend time and money on making their practices sustainable and environmentally friendly.
Don’t let yourself be overcome with affluenza, selfishness and politics.
Take time today to do what you can: recycle, buy local products (food as well as merchandise), and reduce your consumption. After all God detests gluttony (Pro. 23:21) and it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God than for a Camel to go through the Eye of the Needle (Mark 10:25).
Open your eyes to the reality of our wounded planet!!
Where’s the controversy? You would have a different opinion if you lived in Donora, PA in 1948 where twenty one people died and nearly 6,000 became ill after a thermal inversion (a cold air mass) trapped steel industry smog in the city. Or if you were a family member of the 4,000 that died from asphyxiation during the “killer smog” of 1952 in London. Or a child growing up with developmental problems from DDT floating around in the air and water. Perhaps you would feel the same if you were living on the watershed of the Snake River in Idaho where chemical companies are dumping chemical and radioactive waste into the bodies of water or injecting it into the ground water—perhaps you would be ok taking that blow for the companies. Some 60% of liquid hazardous waste in the United States is pumped deep underground and has seeped into groundwater. But that’s fine, I mean, they have to make a living, right? Perhaps living on an island of Maldives and seeing the water rise 4-8 inches in the last 40 years wouldn’t concern you too much as your beaches disappeared, or perhaps the Mexicans are ok with the fact that they get only half of the water that they have paid for from the Colorado River because Americans are too greedy. In fact, the Colorado River is so dammed (no pun intended) that there is no water to empty into the ocean at its mouth.
If the world was subdivided into cubes of land and air resources that did not affect any other property owners bubble, you would see the effects and the differences from owner to owner. Then at least your actions would affect no one else—except those who couldn’t afford to own land—and you could pollute all you wanted. But it doesn’t work like that. Aquifers are connected, some internationally. We all need to use rivers and other bodies of water. The ocean is internationally used and all of these resources are finite. They can be depleted. Thinking that the problem is not really serious yet and waiting for it to get to the level of crisis and THEN doing something about it will not work. First of all, what is your definition of crisis? People are dieing from cancer, arsenic water poisoning, and other pollution related problems and we sit by thinking it’s ok?
When will it not be ok? Aquifers take 200 years to replenish, Ocean fish that become extinct do not come back to life. God gave us this earth to use, but not to destroy selfishly. We are to take care of the earth…we were put here to tend it. We are also told to care for our fellow man, how can we do that when, blinded by our Affluenza, we seek only our own good. We can afford to buy bottled water and sterilize our living quarters from the earth’s polluted elements…but not everyone can. And there will come a time when we can’t escape our own messes. One author has said that Humans are the only species that has fouled its own nest in such short order.
Jer 22:3 “Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.”
How can we love our brothers and sisters in Christ and share the love of God on earth as we contribute to the poisoning of their resources. How can we say that we are loving others and not “shedding innocent blood in this place” while we using things up selfishly without care as to what we are doing for future generations, etc.
All the Scientific data recognizes pollution, consumption, fossil fuel depletion, and Global warming as urgent and serious NOW…politics and corporations don’t want to recognize it because this will mean that their millionaires will have to look at what they are doing and spend time and money on making their practices sustainable and environmentally friendly.
Don’t let yourself be overcome with affluenza, selfishness and politics.
Take time today to do what you can: recycle, buy local products (food as well as merchandise), and reduce your consumption. After all God detests gluttony (Pro. 23:21) and it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God than for a Camel to go through the Eye of the Needle (Mark 10:25).
Open your eyes to the reality of our wounded planet!!
2005-11-21 @ 14:49
Comment from: Matt [Visitor] · http://derflugplatz.blogspot.com/
A comment on tone:
I don't doubt that you've read every one of those facts somewhere in the scientific community, and I'm certainly not questioning your passion for "Mother Earth." However, your tone and word choice sounded much more like the raving greenies up here in the liberal northwest than a God fearing Christian.
This tone of anger and bitterness will get you nowhere, especially if you're arguing on moral or ethical grounds. You can't scold into righteousness.
That being said, I agree with you that the earth is not our garbage dump. I tend to place more emphasis on the notion that the earth, like everything else on it, is here for us to prove our responsibility for heavenly duties. If you're faithful with little, you'll be trusted with much, and if not, you won't be trusted with true riches. (Luke 16:10-11) You see it also in Paul's explaining of how marriage is a symbol of Christ and the church.
This world is a shadow. But it does reveal our natures pretty well. If someone is a jerk here, they don't change at death. If they've been irresponsible with the small parcel of responsibility given to them in this life, why would we charge them with eternal things? I admire your your spirit in this, but don't forget that people are essentially what we're worried about, and you don't win people to your cause by railing the ones that already agree with you.
I don't doubt that you've read every one of those facts somewhere in the scientific community, and I'm certainly not questioning your passion for "Mother Earth." However, your tone and word choice sounded much more like the raving greenies up here in the liberal northwest than a God fearing Christian.
This tone of anger and bitterness will get you nowhere, especially if you're arguing on moral or ethical grounds. You can't scold into righteousness.
That being said, I agree with you that the earth is not our garbage dump. I tend to place more emphasis on the notion that the earth, like everything else on it, is here for us to prove our responsibility for heavenly duties. If you're faithful with little, you'll be trusted with much, and if not, you won't be trusted with true riches. (Luke 16:10-11) You see it also in Paul's explaining of how marriage is a symbol of Christ and the church.
This world is a shadow. But it does reveal our natures pretty well. If someone is a jerk here, they don't change at death. If they've been irresponsible with the small parcel of responsibility given to them in this life, why would we charge them with eternal things? I admire your your spirit in this, but don't forget that people are essentially what we're worried about, and you don't win people to your cause by railing the ones that already agree with you.
8 comments:
Tone...
I didn't realize that I was being bitter. I apologize, I didn't intend to slam someone who already agrees. I didn't realize you agreed, when you said that the earth doesn't get credit for how much it can handle I simply wanted to bring out that the earth often doesn't get credit for what it can't handle too.
I thought my focus was the people...keeping people from dieing is a good thing right? I thought supporting people's livlihoods is a good way to love them. And an in to tell them about Jesus. A lot of times out here in Iowa I've come across Christians who simply don't care, they believe that the earth is infinite or that we are supposed to just exploit the earth because Jesus is coming soon.
While I agree that Jesus is coming soon, we don't know how soon and yah you know the rest I don't need to go on again..haha I don't think I've thought about it in the rhelm of being responsible with a little. That's a good way to think about it...do you think that we should teach people to be responsible with the earth or do you think that they can figure it out on their own?
"railing greenies" Lol...first time I've been compared to one of those. But I guess if the shoe fits. I don't honestly want to cram everything down everyone's throat. It is an urgent subject in my eyes and I thought it was a debate/discussion page. But I realize I've learned too forceful of a debate style while here at school and debating with my dad. ;)
Didn't mean to attack, but looking back on my post I do see that I used an accusatory voice a few times...though I didn't mean to direct it at you. I simply shot it into cyber space not realizing that you'd see it as a bullet coming at you. Lo siento!
Have a good day. (jee..I always type too much sorry..lol)
p.s. LOL...you are from Idaho..didn't know that. Perhaps you know about Snake River better than I do. ;)
Anyway. Last comment I promise. Thanks for you reproving comments. I don't get that out here and I've often wondered if I am off balance. I'm studying under an ecologist who is from Idaho too and often encourages me to be a little too liberal I think.
Firstly, perhaps I am assuming to much, but shell's comment seems to imply the natural state of the world is Eden, and all of the dams and factories are a boil on the face of the earth. Eden's gone, the whole world is cursed because of us, and even cursed now by the things we do. As my friend Kelsey Gibb said, don't try to fix what can only be redeemed.
Stewardship is one thing, but trying to go back before the fall is another.
Secondly, on Matt's biking morals, fine, well and good. You'd fit well in Europe. If our towns were built for bikers and pedestrians instead of the All-hallowed SUV, we wouldn't have the urban sprawl and that is increasing lifelong obesity, degrading the anatomy of cities, and compounding the surly American cowboy "me and my homestead" mentality that was only useful when the west was wild. The suburbs deny that other people matter in our lives.
What do you mean "me and my homestead" mentality? Do you mean property ownership...or am I misreading?
Perhaps its because I live in a tiny town that I don't understand what you mean by "The suburbs deny that other people matter in our lives."
by the me and my homestead mentality, I mean the American tendency to define themselves by their things. Materialism, pretty much. People define themselves with their trophy houses on three acre plots, with their perfect abercrombie lives...woah, it's kinda "Fight Club."
The suburbs are the American's attempt to pretend they are isolated on an English estate with their titles. They don't care how land use is going to affect other people, and they don't want to be aware that other people are even there. In a city, you could have fifteen families, probably poor, living in the same building. Ten bucks says they know their neighbors' names. From what I have seen of the suburbs, you know maybe one or two neighbors on your street, and the rest you know only as "the guy with a camper," or "the house that always has the cops called on its delinquent kids." So I mean that the suburbs use space, dependency on cars and the like to deny that we actually live in proximity of people, and to deny that those people matter.
Shell, is Gaither's link from your blog? Cuz that blog is awesome.
Ash:
Urban sprawl gets too much credit. You can bike to Wal-Mart (though this may be ironic) and the nursery... a traversable sprawl.
Ash:
Ha, I'd like to take credit for starting this conversation...but the original "Green" post that Matt has copied his and my response to, is from my brother Sam's blog. Sam's is www.duregger.net
While mine is www.duregger.net/shell
lol....confusing I know. Who's blog is awesome? I'm a bit competitive with my bro and would love to get that clarified..haha.
I think I understand what you are getting at about the suburbs and I agree. Wish they'd stop being lazy in suburbs and construct more bike trails and sidewalks...what the heck is the problem with some parts of Oklahoma with the no sidewalks thing?! I try to bike from home every once-in-a-while...when I'm not too terribly out of shape--I live about 10 miles from town..haha. Though I have to admit I have a gas guzzling Montero that I use in the winter for snow driving. I've plastered it with environmental stickers to make myself feel better. It's a bit pathetic.
Shell - The awesome blog is the one that's linked... your brother's...but I'll check yours out. And I give you ten points to spend in heaven for having a legitimate use for your SUV.
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